As do I, but how the hell are people coming in at $90 for a one-off part?! Assuming $60/hr shop rate, are some of you guys really capable of scratching your head/programming/setting up/ordering material/cutting material/running part/inspecting part in 1.5 hours? That's even assuming that you had all the tooling and material sitting around!
Quick Quote Needed Two small Alum parts, 1 set now, more later
- Thread starter amasters
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Matt, pretty simple, bad economy and people are desperate. A lot of people only quote actual machine run time. People program and set-up for free these
days, let alone charge out time for shipping and paperwork. On small runs people
are doing them during their day job, check out the guy who made one during his
spare time at "work".Hard to compete with someone who has no overhead. The
part awarded here would have easily attracted an average bid of $300 just a few years ago, now people sell CNC machine time for $12 an hr, just the way it
is these days.
days, let alone charge out time for shipping and paperwork. On small runs people
are doing them during their day job, check out the guy who made one during his
spare time at "work".Hard to compete with someone who has no overhead. The
part awarded here would have easily attracted an average bid of $300 just a few years ago, now people sell CNC machine time for $12 an hr, just the way it
is these days.
Dual, I will say that you are making good points with your statement by putting into words the obvious. I understand that in theory and practice, yes, a one time piece such as the one rfq'd here would cost around $300 between shop/payroll/material ect,.
However, your use of quotations embracing the word "work." Make me take offense to your comment and question your morals and business ethics.
These are the things I do not understand:
How the hell can some of you guys, especially the ones in their late 40's and 50's, say that you are conducting fair business? What ever happend to the days when you could do someone a solid in order to develop an honest business relationship? After the first piece charge an actual price... This was an rfq for A (1) (one) piece, with the hint of more work to come from this customer. If your work is true, he should come back to you before anyone else... All you union-minded, woodstocked, flower loving ****s who grew up in the 60's and 70's.... the ones that have lost your conservitive values and that think you are special because you have been around for ages on end, so your work is special and worth more... This is the shit that makes me sick and is the reason the economy is hurting the way it is today.
I was instructed by my supervisor to R&D MasterCAM and pratice machine setups to improve my skills as a machinist... While at work. How is writing a program, selecting tooling, setting up, and machining a piece any different than what you do at your job? How dare you imply, by use of quotations, that I was not working... Using what I have on hand to try and help another (by quoting low) and using logic and relationship development skills, which in the long run could earn myself, does not seem to be a bad idea at all to me.
On top of this, what does it matter to you what I do at work? I'm the one thats out material cost anyway... I didn't win the bid. Sorry if my running this single piece is going to break your business... I'll send you one for $55 and you can haggle with Andy and try to get more out of it if you would like... If not, its going in the scrap bin.
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Fokusco,
Chill out. You may have been allowed to practice on the part you posted
which is fine. There are others out there that not only practice, but do outside
work with out their employers knowledge. Back many years ago I have worked
along side people that did this. I am sure many of these people are conducting
business on these online bidding forms. It is impossible for an honest person to
compete with these people, when they are using someone else's machine time,
tooling and materials. I have seen many of these one offs awarded for barely
the cost of material, that would lead a person of reasonable intelligence to know
something unscrupulous was going on. I have visited people starting out in a
small garage shop, stocked to the gills with tooling all "borrowed" from their
employer, they are the types getting the low bid on jobs with high perishable
tooling costs. Your posting of the picture of that part just reminded me of the
people that "moonlight" at "work". I did not say that you did that. If you were
self-employed with overhead you would quickly go broke doing one offs like
the part awarded in this thread for $55. Curious where your name came from?
Is it a derogatory comment toward USA companies? Rather odd, don't you think? For the record "Dualkit" is from originally manufacturing dual alternator
kits for automobiles.
Chill out. You may have been allowed to practice on the part you posted
which is fine. There are others out there that not only practice, but do outside
work with out their employers knowledge. Back many years ago I have worked
along side people that did this. I am sure many of these people are conducting
business on these online bidding forms. It is impossible for an honest person to
compete with these people, when they are using someone else's machine time,
tooling and materials. I have seen many of these one offs awarded for barely
the cost of material, that would lead a person of reasonable intelligence to know
something unscrupulous was going on. I have visited people starting out in a
small garage shop, stocked to the gills with tooling all "borrowed" from their
employer, they are the types getting the low bid on jobs with high perishable
tooling costs. Your posting of the picture of that part just reminded me of the
people that "moonlight" at "work". I did not say that you did that. If you were
self-employed with overhead you would quickly go broke doing one offs like
the part awarded in this thread for $55. Curious where your name came from?
Is it a derogatory comment toward USA companies? Rather odd, don't you think? For the record "Dualkit" is from originally manufacturing dual alternator
kits for automobiles.
I will touch this in a moment.
First off, this:
It looks to me as tho you did nothing shy of imply that I was "moonlighting." If anyone disagrees with my taking offense to this statement, I am sorry for jumping the gun. When you say "this guy"(me) and "his"(also me) spare time at 'work,'" one is lead to believe that you were talking about me. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Now, onto my username. No, Fokusco has nothing to do with US companies. I have nothing but wonderful feelings for companies (aside from the auto industry) that have made the responsible decision to continue their manufacturing here in The States. Just to put it out there, my family and I make it point to buy USA made products, a decision that I believe any self-respecting citizen of the great US should do. Now dont take that as I buy everything USA made... I drive a Toyota and, being in the manufacturing industry in its current shape with a 1 year old baby girl, cannot always afford to not shop Wal-Mart for basic necessities that, sadly, are hard to find made in USA.
My username is actually a reference to a "business" that I started in middle school. Fokus (pronounced: focus) is a skateboard term. I had a recipe for skateboarding wax, made it, packaged it, and sold it at local skateboard shops. To "focus" a skateboard is to purposefully break it by stomping on it... There was already a company, that had long since died out when I got into the hobby, that used the name Focus.... So I, being a brilliant 8th grader, decided to mix it up a bit and call my business FoKus Company.
Thank you very much for the complement. I have only been machining for about a year and a half now and feel as tho I have come leaps and bounds when it comes to my knowledge about the machining process... Please don't take that as hard-headedness, for I am not cocky, just proud of my progress. I have had one hell of a mentor to help me with setups and knowledge of materials and great equipment to work with. However my mentor only has experience with manual mills and has about zero knowledge of programing cnc equipment so I have had to learn just about everything I know about cnc's by teaching myself. Proud and eager to learn more... not cocky
I am looking forward to becoming an active user of this forum.
Sorry that I stray so far from topic...
I'm glad to see a couple people that I recognize as skilled machinists agreeing with me. I was really starting to think I was totally out to lunch with my quotes as I've lost every single one for the last couple months by a LARGE margin. Good thing my mill is paid for and sitting on my property, or I'd have had to sell it.
Dualkit, it's interesting you guessed at $300. That's almost exactly what I quoted this part, and I felt good about it.
fokusco, I don't mean this to be rude, but it strikes me as you've got a lot to learn about the machining business. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who's not much older than you, but I've been in this game for over 11 years now. The guys who are low balling these prototype jobs that promise production quantities later are out of their minds. Like kburns125 alluded to, some times people only say that to lure shops into this very situation, all the while knowing that they will never order more than the one "prototype".
Dualkit, it's interesting you guessed at $300. That's almost exactly what I quoted this part, and I felt good about it.
fokusco, I don't mean this to be rude, but it strikes me as you've got a lot to learn about the machining business. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who's not much older than you, but I've been in this game for over 11 years now. The guys who are low balling these prototype jobs that promise production quantities later are out of their minds. Like kburns125 alluded to, some times people only say that to lure shops into this very situation, all the while knowing that they will never order more than the one "prototype".
Nononono I don't take that as rude at all. I have a complete understanding of my lack of knowledge. All I have is a strong base for starting. I totally and honestly understand that there is much much more out there for me to pick up. I am here to learn. That is why I wake up early and go to work everyday of the week... to learn. I LOVE what I have picked up so far and have a very hungry appetite for more.
I do tho have strong understanding of business... Both today and that of yesterday. And I know that things need to change/revert from a strictly financial way of thinking... never doing favors for people, owners laying off employees so they can continue to drive their Caddy XLR's... It's full off bullshitters and whackoffs.... Business, the way it is today, has led to nothing good, especially in our industry.
I do know of at least 2 instances on this forum where amasters has provided members with work so his word of more to come seems promising.
I can appreciate that. Sounds a lot like me.
Thanks for taking my comment how it was intended.Let's exclude the jackass' you mention for now because that's a whole different subject. Your way of thinking is nice and all, but it sure as hell doesn't pay the bills. I'm jaded and I'm the first to admit it, but I just can't bring myself to work my ass off for $15/hr for someone who may or may not either appreciate it or repay me in any way. It's not worth it to take chances like that, not to me anyway. For some reason I'm tempted to think that you picture the great depression when talking about doing other people favors and the like, as it applies to business. There was lots of that going on, sure, but the businesses that survived the depression were NOT doing work for free. No sir. They may have worked for cattle or property repair or eggs, but they were paid with whatever currency they deemed acceptable, and they were paid the quantity of that currency that their work demanded. I do quality work, you pay me for quality work. Period. The only favor I'm going to do for a customer is to not screw them by being late or delivering poor quality parts. That part I don't charge extra for.
And before you label me, you should know that probably 75% of the quotes I give to potential customers are finalized only after I've spent a few hours helping them improve their part(s) in some way. What really chaps my ass is that I know that the low ball bidders are recieving models and/or prints that I helped improve. In some cases, models that I created from scratch and was nice (dumb) enough to give to the customer for review.
Think about this though; Why is he coming back here to post more RFQ's? It seems like a good thing on the surface, but the first things I think of is 1) he can't find a good shop because he's awarding jobs to shops that are cutting their own throats, or 2) he's shopping on price alone. He said that he didn't award this latest job to the lowest bidder, so whatever he's doing, he's probably being smart about it. Not smart in a way that will help me or the economy, but smart for him. That's business.
If he was finding shops that fulfilled his requirements, he wouldn't have to come here for all his RFQ's...he'd just send work to his machinist.
Andy, please set me straight if I'm wrong.
Again - I have to strongly agree with Matt.
I have some jade colour for sure ;-)
A personal FYI - machining around here is in tough shape as well. Although part of my business is a machine shop I don't chase around for "parts" to make (I make parts by request and at an appropriate price).
The good money is in the industrial services now and the machine/fab shop almost ends up being more of a support tool for the services than being the actual business itself.
My definition of "machine shop" is a shop that makes parts from suppliers prints using machine tools.
Services include millwrighting, repairs, machine design/build, safety equipment & upgrades, manufacturing cell installations, pressure piping, etc.
I have some jade colour for sure ;-)
- this is VERY familier but it has also made some great relations with people who realize what it is worth and I now do all their work.
I was kinda thinking this too. Around here we typically see customers who loyally come back, because service is key on small or 1-off jobs. Although for production runs it is only smart to shop around. I do the same thing when purchasing. If i need a bar of steel I phone the local guy and order it, If i need a truck load - i send out for quotes.
A personal FYI - machining around here is in tough shape as well. Although part of my business is a machine shop I don't chase around for "parts" to make (I make parts by request and at an appropriate price).
The good money is in the industrial services now and the machine/fab shop almost ends up being more of a support tool for the services than being the actual business itself.
My definition of "machine shop" is a shop that makes parts from suppliers prints using machine tools.
Services include millwrighting, repairs, machine design/build, safety equipment & upgrades, manufacturing cell installations, pressure piping, etc.
amasters
Thermo_man
Matt et al...
I agree with you on the pricing from the low bidders. It does not give me much confidence in the supplier when I see such a low bid. I start to think the same way as you guys do...is he moonlighting? etc, will I get the material I asked for? what will the quality be like?
I am back at RFQwork for several reasons, one is that I like this community and the people here and I can spread some of the work around. Not what everyone wants to hear, especially the guy that got the last job, but I will likely do it with the one-off stuff and certain to do it with the volume stuff.
I have yet to award a volume job (volume is relative, I'm thinking 25, 50, 100 pcs per order, at this stage)
I am very new to getting stuff machined for my small Co, and do not have a good feel for pricing on these parts etc. This way, I'm learning whats out there and what it takes both for me and the suppliers.
I once considered buying a CNC mill and learning myself, but time is so short that I now believe it is better to pay someone else to do what they are good at and leave me to do things that I am good at.
Also, the last job has been completed and I received the part. I think it is what I perceive to be high quality and it was done at a good price and done in an agreed upon time frame. I will be back to him in the future, for sure. But, at the same time I have little to compare to, and I also know there are other good shops out there that I would like to see work from. This is the selfish business part - but I want to get other parts to see who are the other better shops out there - I'm shopping around on quality combined with price and trying to avoid the moonlighters.
That's my $.02 worth...
Andy
PS, my definition of a Moonlighter is someone doing work on someone elses machine and facility, thus without any overhead. Unfair and unethical IMO. A small garage shop putting out consistent quality work is NOT moonlighting to me, its just a small business and all small busineses have to start somewhere.
I agree with you on the pricing from the low bidders. It does not give me much confidence in the supplier when I see such a low bid. I start to think the same way as you guys do...is he moonlighting? etc, will I get the material I asked for? what will the quality be like?
I am back at RFQwork for several reasons, one is that I like this community and the people here and I can spread some of the work around. Not what everyone wants to hear, especially the guy that got the last job, but I will likely do it with the one-off stuff and certain to do it with the volume stuff.
I have yet to award a volume job (volume is relative, I'm thinking 25, 50, 100 pcs per order, at this stage)
I am very new to getting stuff machined for my small Co, and do not have a good feel for pricing on these parts etc. This way, I'm learning whats out there and what it takes both for me and the suppliers.
I once considered buying a CNC mill and learning myself, but time is so short that I now believe it is better to pay someone else to do what they are good at and leave me to do things that I am good at.
Also, the last job has been completed and I received the part. I think it is what I perceive to be high quality and it was done at a good price and done in an agreed upon time frame. I will be back to him in the future, for sure. But, at the same time I have little to compare to, and I also know there are other good shops out there that I would like to see work from. This is the selfish business part - but I want to get other parts to see who are the other better shops out there - I'm shopping around on quality combined with price and trying to avoid the moonlighters.
That's my $.02 worth...
Andy
PS, my definition of a Moonlighter is someone doing work on someone elses machine and facility, thus without any overhead. Unfair and unethical IMO. A small garage shop putting out consistent quality work is NOT moonlighting to me, its just a small business and all small busineses have to start somewhere.
Hi all, I am owner/operator of Brian's Machine & Powdercoat located in SW Ok
and I was one on the low side of this job because I had open CNC time coming up. Although I try to stay out of all the B S arguments such as this which go along with online bidding but I feel it is time to speak up and see just how many are in the same shoes as me. I have been in machining all my life(36 yrs old) and I share a shop (and payment) with my cousin he does welding and fab. while I do the machine work, a common sense way for us to both get up and running as a business. Here are some other things I would like to make known as well.
1 This is my full time job. I buy my own tooling, material and other needed supplies just as you do. I file taxes as a business under a fed. tax # just like you do.
.
2 As far as pricing a damn expensive shop rate in this area is $60.00/hr. Most of the time I quote as if the job is local (same shop rate less than afore mentioned $60.00) But it is also not as expensive to live in Ok as in calif. just some things to keep in mind.
3. I have 1 1996 CNC VMC (paid for)
1 2007 CNC Lathe ( not yet paid for yet)
2 manual lathes 2 manual mills 1 bandsaw and powdercoating equipment all of which are paid for.
There really are ways to work for less and make more if your not paying thousands of dollars a month for equipment. Im afraid the dog eat dog world will get alot worse before it gets any better. This is only my situation and I am sure you are right about some moonlighting but I want to make it clear I am not one of them.
Brian w Doughty
Brian's Machine & Powdercoat
and I was one on the low side of this job because I had open CNC time coming up. Although I try to stay out of all the B S arguments such as this which go along with online bidding but I feel it is time to speak up and see just how many are in the same shoes as me. I have been in machining all my life(36 yrs old) and I share a shop (and payment) with my cousin he does welding and fab. while I do the machine work, a common sense way for us to both get up and running as a business. Here are some other things I would like to make known as well.
1 This is my full time job. I buy my own tooling, material and other needed supplies just as you do. I file taxes as a business under a fed. tax # just like you do.
.
2 As far as pricing a damn expensive shop rate in this area is $60.00/hr. Most of the time I quote as if the job is local (same shop rate less than afore mentioned $60.00) But it is also not as expensive to live in Ok as in calif. just some things to keep in mind.
3. I have 1 1996 CNC VMC (paid for)
1 2007 CNC Lathe ( not yet paid for yet)
2 manual lathes 2 manual mills 1 bandsaw and powdercoating equipment all of which are paid for.
There really are ways to work for less and make more if your not paying thousands of dollars a month for equipment. Im afraid the dog eat dog world will get alot worse before it gets any better. This is only my situation and I am sure you are right about some moonlighting but I want to make it clear I am not one of them.
Brian w Doughty
Brian's Machine & Powdercoat
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